On Wed, Aug 15, 2007 at 07:17:29PM +0530, Satyam Sharma wrote:

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007, Stefan Richter wrote:

quoted

Satyam Sharma wrote:

quoted

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007, Stefan Richter wrote:

quoted

Doesn't "atomic WRT all processors" require volatility?

No, it definitely doesn't. Why should it?

"Atomic w.r.t. all processors" is just your normal, simple "atomicity"
for SMP systems (ensure that that object is modified / set / replaced
in main memory atomically) and has nothing to do with "volatile"
behaviour.

"Volatile behaviour" itself isn't consistently defined (at least
definitely not consistently implemented in various gcc versions across
platforms), but it is /expected/ to mean something like: "ensure that
every such access actually goes all the way to memory, and is not
re-ordered w.r.t. to other accesses, as far as the compiler can take
care of these". The last "as far as compiler can take care" disclaimer
comes about due to CPUs doing their own re-ordering nowadays.

For example (say on i386):

[...]

quoted

In (A) the compiler optimized "a = 10;" away, but the actual store
of the final value "20" to "a" was still "atomic". (B) and (C) also
exhibit "volatile" behaviour apart from the "atomicity".

But as others replied, it seems some callers out there depend upon
atomic ops exhibiting "volatile" behaviour as well, so that answers
my initial question, actually. I haven't looked at the code Paul
pointed me at, but I wonder if that "forget(x)" macro would help
those cases. I'd wish to avoid the "volatile" primitive, personally.

So, looking at load instead of store, understand I correctly that in
your opinion

	int b;

	b = atomic_read(&a);
	if (b)
		do_something_time_consuming();

	b = atomic_read(&a);
	if (b)
		do_something_more();

should be changed to explicitly forget(&a) after
do_something_time_consuming?

No, I'd actually prefer something like what Christoph Lameter suggested,
i.e. users (such as above) who want "volatile"-like behaviour from atomic
ops can use alternative functions. How about something like:

#define atomic_read_volatile(v)			\
	({					\
		forget(&(v)->counter);		\
		((v)->counter);			\
	})

Wouldn't the above "forget" the value, throw it away, then forget
that it forgot it, giving non-volatile semantics?

Or possibly, implement these "volatile" atomic ops variants in inline asm
like the patch that Sebastian Siewior has submitted on another thread just
a while back.

Given that you are advocating a change (please keep in mind that
atomic_read() and atomic_set() had volatile semantics on almost all
platforms), care to give some example where these historical volatile
semantics are causing a problem?

Of course, if we find there are more callers in the kernel who want the
volatility behaviour than those who don't care, we can re-define the
existing ops to such variants, and re-name the existing definitions to
somethine else, say "atomic_read_nonvolatile" for all I care.

Do we really need another set of APIs?  Can you give even one example
where the pre-existing volatile semantics are causing enough of a problem
to justify adding yet more atomic_*() APIs?

							Thanx, Paul