On 19/09/13 16:30, Roberto Spadim wrote:

Hi Stan!

Hi Roberto,

Just a few things:

thanks a lot about your experience
I have some doubts about raid boards, what you look when you buy one?
i bought some raid boards (most perc from dell, others adaptec and
others lsi) and don't know if it's really a good feature... check if
i'm wrong about things i most look before buying one:
1) Smart or other tool to diagnostics and access drives diagnostics
2) Cache memory (if i have 512mb here, i could replace with 512mb or
more at linux side? instead of cache at raid board, why not add cache
to linux kernel?)

You could, but your Linux box is unlikely battery backed. The advantage 
of these card's memory is that in the event of a power failure, the 
contents of memory is kept and flushed later on. This is especially 
important because here we are talking about "fast" writes: the RAID card 
tells the IO requester that the IO has been flushed even though it 
hasn't (at least not on the drive). If this was a Linux box and you 
lacked battery backing, the client would assume some data was written 
while it was actually lost, causing silent failure (the worst kind of it).

3) batery backup, how this really work? what kind of raid board really
work nice with this?

As Stan mentioned, some LSI controllers support this. You can lookup the 
LSI website to find out about it. Sometimes the BBU (battery unit) comes 
separately.

4) support for news drivers (firmware updates)

LSI is quite good when it comes to Linux drivers. They are updated 
directly in the official kernel so no need to update .ko files or 
anything like that.

5) support for hot swap

These cards usually support hot swap very well, with less downtime 
between pulling/pushing drives. (sometimes MD can take a few seconds to 
remove/add a drive in an array).

6) if i use ssd what should i consider? i have one raid card with ssd
and i don't know if it's runs nice or just do the job
7) anything else? costs =) ?

The costs, as Stan mentioned also, are fairly reasonable, in the order 
of a good quality SSD drive.

i will search about this boards you told, and about features (i don't
know what bbu means yet, but will check... any good raid boards
literarture to read? maybe wikipedia?)

BBU means "battery backed unit" as far as I know.

thanks a lot!! :)

One note: This is not an LSI promotional response, I just know about LSI 
cards more than their counterpart, so I gave insight on what I knew.

Regards,
Ben.

2013/9/19 Stan Hoeppner [off-list ref]:

quoted

On 9/18/2013 10:42 PM, Roberto Spadim wrote:

quoted

nice, in other words, is better spend money with hardware raid cards
right?

If it's my money, yes, absolutely.  RAID BBWC will run circles around an
SSD with a random write workload.  The cycle time on DDR2 SDRAM is 10s
of nanoseconds.  Write latency on flash cells is 50-100 microseconds.
Do the math.

Random write apps such as transactional databases rarely, if ever,
saturate the BBWC faster than it can flush and free pages, so the
additional capacity of an SSD yields no benefit.  Additionally, good
RAID firmware will take some of the randomness out of the write pattern
by flushing nearby LBA sectors in a single IO to the drives, increasing
the effectiveness of TCQ/NCQ, thereby reducing seeks.  This in essence
increases the random IO throughput of the drives.

In summary, yes, a good caching RAID controller w/BBU will yield vastly
superior performance compared to SSD for most random write workloads,
simply due to instantaneous ACK to fsync and friends.

quoted

any special card that i should look?

If this R420 is the 4x3.5" model then the LSI 9260-4i is suitable.  If
it's the 8x2.5" drive model then the LSI 9260-8i is suitable.  Both have
512MB of cache DRAM.  In both cases you'd use the LSI00161/ LSIiBBU07
BBU for lower cost instead of the flash option.  These two models have
the lowest MSRP of the LSI RAID cards having both large cache and BBU
support.

In the 8x2.5" case you could also use the Dell PERC 710, which has built
in FBWC.  Probably more expensive than the LSI branded cards.  All of
Dell's RAID cards are rebranded LSI cards, or OEM produced by LSI for
Dell with Dell branded firmware.  I.e. it's the same product, same
performance, just a different name on it.

Adaptec also has decent RAID cards.  The bottom end doesn't support BBU
so steer clear of those, i.e. 6405e/6805e, etc.

Don't use Areca, HighPoint, Promise, etc.  They're simply not in the
same league as the enterprise vendors above.  If you have problems with
optimizing their cards, drivers, firmware, etc for a specific workload,
their support is simply non existent.  You're on your own.

quoted

2013/9/18 Stan Hoeppner [off-list ref]:

quoted

On 9/18/2013 12:33 PM, Roberto Spadim wrote:

quoted

Well the internet link here is 100mbps, i think the workload will be a
bit more than only 100 users, it's a second webserver+database server
He is trying to use a cheaper server with more disk performace, Brazil
costs are too high to allow a full ssd system or 15k rpm sas harddisks
For mariadb server i'm studing if the thread-pool scheduler will be
used instead of one thread per connection but "it's not my problem"
the final user will select what is better for database scheduler
In other words i think the work load will not be a simple web server
cms/blog, i don't know yet how it will work, it's a black/gray box to
me, today he have sata enterprise hdd 7200rpm at servers (dell server
r420 if i'm not wrong) and is studing if a ssd could help, that's my
'job' (hobby) in this task

Based on the information provided it sounds like the machine is seek
bound.  The simplest, and best, solution to this problem is simply
installing a [B|F]BWC RAID card w/512KB cache.  Synchronous writes are
acked when committed to RAID cache instead of the platter.  This will
yield ~130,000 burst write TPS before hitting the spindles, or ~130,000
writes in flight.  This is far more performance than you can achieve
with a low end enterprise SSD, for about the same cost.  It's fully
transparent and performance is known and guaranteed, unlike the recent
kernel based block IO caching hacks targeting SSDs as fast read/write
buffers.

You can use the onboard RAID firmware to create RAID1s or a RAID10, or
you can expose each disk individually and use md/RAID while still
benefiting from the write caching, though for only a handful of disks
you're better off using the firmware RAID.  Another advantage is that
you can use parity RAID (controller firmware only) and avoid some of the
RMW penalty, as the read blocks will be in controller cache.  I.e. you
can use three 7.2K disks, get the same capacity as a four disk RAID10,
with equal read performance and nearly the same write performance.

Write heavy DB workloads are a post child for hardware caching RAID devices.

--
Stan

quoted

2013/9/18 Drew [off-list ref]:

quoted

On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Roberto Spadim [off-list ref] wrote:

quoted

Sorry guys, this time i don't have a full knowledge about the
workload, but from what he told me, he want fast writes with hdd but i
could check if small ssd devices could help
After install linux with raid1 i will install apache mariadb and php
at this machine, in other words it's a database and web server load,
but i don't know what size of app and database will run yet

Btw, ssd with bcache or dm cache could help hdd (this must be
enterprise level) writes, right?
Any idea what the best method to test what kernel drive could give
superior performace? I'm thinking about install the bcache, and after
make a backup and install dm cache and check what's better, any other
idea?

We still need to know what size datasets are going to be used. And
also given it's a webserver, how big of a pipe does he have?

Given a typical webserver in a colo w/ 10Mbps pipe, I think the
suggested config is overkill. For a webserver the 7200 SATA's should
be able to deliver enough data to keep apache happy.

In the database side, depends on how intensive the workload is. I see
a lot of webservers where the 7200's are just fine because the I/O
demands from the database are low. Blog/CMS systems like wordpress
will be harder on the database but again it depends on how heavy the
access is to the server. How many visitors/hour does he expect to
serve?


--
Drew
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