On Monday February 18, keld@dkuug.dk wrote:
On Mon, Feb 18, 2008 at 03:07:44PM +1100, Neil Brown wrote:
quoted
On Sunday February 17, keld@dkuug.dk wrote:
quoted
Hi
quoted
It seems like a good way to avoid the performance problems of raid-5
/raid-6
I think there are better ways.
Interesting! What do you have in mind?
A "Log Structured Filesystem" always does large contiguous writes.
Aligning these to the raid5 stripes wouldn't be too hard and then you
would never have to do any pre-reading.
and what are the problems with zfs?
Recovery after a failed drive would not be an easy operation, and I
cannot imagine it being even close to the raw speed of the device.
quoted
quoted
But does it stripe? One could think that rewriting stripes
other places would damage the striping effects.
I'm not sure what you mean exactly. But I suspect your concerns here
are unjustified.
More precisely. I understand that zfs always write the data anew.
That would mean at other blocks on the partitions, for the logical blocks
of the file in question. So the blocks on the partitions will not be
adjacant. And striping will not be possible, generally.
The important part of striping is that a write is spread out over
multiple devices, isn't it.
If ZFS can choose where to put each block that it writes, it can
easily choose to write a series of blocks to a collection of different
devices, thus getting the major benefit of striping.
NeilBrown
On Mon, Feb 18, 2008 at 09:51:15PM +1100, Neil Brown wrote:
On Monday February 18, keld@dkuug.dk wrote:
quoted
On Mon, Feb 18, 2008 at 03:07:44PM +1100, Neil Brown wrote:
quoted
On Sunday February 17, keld@dkuug.dk wrote:
quoted
Hi
quoted
It seems like a good way to avoid the performance problems of raid-5
/raid-6
I think there are better ways.
Interesting! What do you have in mind?
A "Log Structured Filesystem" always does large contiguous writes.
Aligning these to the raid5 stripes wouldn't be too hard and then you
would never have to do any pre-reading.
quoted
and what are the problems with zfs?
Recovery after a failed drive would not be an easy operation, and I
cannot imagine it being even close to the raw speed of the device.
I thought this was a problem with most raid types, while
reconstructioning, performance is quite slow. And as there has been some
damage, this is expected. And there probebly is no much ado about it.
Or is there? Are there any RAID types that performs reasonably well
given that one disk is under repair? The performance could be cruical
for some applications.
One could think of clever arrangements so that say two disks could go
down and the rest of the array with 10-20 drives could still function
reasonably well, even under the reconstruction. As far as I can tell
from the code, the reconstruction itself is not impeding normal
performance much, as normal operation bars reconstuction operations.
Hmm, my understanding would then be, for both random reads and writes
that performance in typical raids would only be reduced by the IO bandwidth
of the failing disks.
For sequential R/W performance for raid10,f would
be hurt, downgrading its performance to random IO for the drives involved.
Raid5/6 would be hurt much for reading, as all drives need to be read for giving
correct information during reconstruction.
So it looks like, if your performance is important under a
reconstruction, then you should avoid raid5/6 and use the mirrored raid
types. Given you have a big operation, with a load balance of a lot of
random reading and writing, it does not matter much which mirrored
raid type you would choose, as they all perform about equal for random
IO, even when reconstructing. Is that correct advice?
quoted
quoted
quoted
But does it stripe? One could think that rewriting stripes
other places would damage the striping effects.
I'm not sure what you mean exactly. But I suspect your concerns here
are unjustified.
More precisely. I understand that zfs always write the data anew.
That would mean at other blocks on the partitions, for the logical blocks
of the file in question. So the blocks on the partitions will not be
adjacant. And striping will not be possible, generally.
The important part of striping is that a write is spread out over
multiple devices, isn't it.
If ZFS can choose where to put each block that it writes, it can
easily choose to write a series of blocks to a collection of different
devices, thus getting the major benefit of striping.
I see 2 major benefits of striping: one is that many drives are involved
and the other is that the stripes are allocated adjacant, so that io
on one drive can just proceed to the next physical blocks when one
stripe has been processed. Dependent on the size of the IO operations
involved, first one or more disks in a stripe is processed, and then the
following stripes are processed. ZFS misses the second part of the
optimization, In think.
Best regards
Keld
Keld Jørn Simonsen [off-list ref] wrote:
On Mon, Feb 18, 2008 at 09:51:15PM +1100, Neil Brown wrote:
quoted
Recovery after a failed drive would not be an easy operation, and I
cannot imagine it being even close to the raw speed of the device.
I thought this was a problem with most raid types, while
reconstructioning, performance is quite slow. And as there has been some
There is a difference between "recovery is quite slow" and "raid device
access is quite slow" The former is an issue since it stretches the time
where you're in non-redundant danger while the latter is just
inconvenient.
regards
Mario
--
I heard, if you play a NT-CD backwards, you get satanic messages...
That's nothing. If you play it forwards, it installs NT.
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-raid" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote:
On Mon, Feb 18, 2008 at 09:51:15PM +1100, Neil Brown wrote:
quoted
On Monday February 18, keld@dkuug.dk wrote:
quoted
On Mon, Feb 18, 2008 at 03:07:44PM +1100, Neil Brown wrote:
quoted
On Sunday February 17, keld@dkuug.dk wrote:
quoted
Hi
It seems like a good way to avoid the performance problems of raid-5
/raid-6
I think there are better ways.
Interesting! What do you have in mind?
A "Log Structured Filesystem" always does large contiguous writes.
Aligning these to the raid5 stripes wouldn't be too hard and then you
would never have to do any pre-reading.
quoted
and what are the problems with zfs?
Recovery after a failed drive would not be an easy operation, and I
cannot imagine it being even close to the raw speed of the device.
I thought this was a problem with most raid types, while
reconstructioning, performance is quite slow. And as there has been some
damage, this is expected. And there probebly is no much ado about it.
Or is there? Are there any RAID types that performs reasonably well
given that one disk is under repair? The performance could be cruical
for some applications.
If that's a requirement, RAID1 with multiple copies would probably be
your best best. You could probably design a test from existing software
and a script, I'm just basing the thought on having run load on a
recovering 4 way mirror at one time. The load was 100-250 random
reads/sec, and response time stayed acceptable.
One could think of clever arrangements so that say two disks could go
down and the rest of the array with 10-20 drives could still function
reasonably well, even under the reconstruction. As far as I can tell
from the code, the reconstruction itself is not impeding normal
performance much, as normal operation bars reconstuction operations.
Hmm, my understanding would then be, for both random reads and writes
that performance in typical raids would only be reduced by the IO bandwidth
of the failing disks.
For sequential R/W performance for raid10,f would
be hurt, downgrading its performance to random IO for the drives involved.
Raid5/6 would be hurt much for reading, as all drives need to be read for giving
correct information during reconstruction.
So it looks like, if your performance is important under a
reconstruction, then you should avoid raid5/6 and use the mirrored raid
types. Given you have a big operation, with a load balance of a lot of
random reading and writing, it does not matter much which mirrored
raid type you would choose, as they all perform about equal for random
IO, even when reconstructing. Is that correct advice?
quoted
quoted
quoted
quoted
But does it stripe? One could think that rewriting stripes
other places would damage the striping effects.
I'm not sure what you mean exactly. But I suspect your concerns here
are unjustified.
More precisely. I understand that zfs always write the data anew.
That would mean at other blocks on the partitions, for the logical blocks
of the file in question. So the blocks on the partitions will not be
adjacant. And striping will not be possible, generally.
The important part of striping is that a write is spread out over
multiple devices, isn't it.
If ZFS can choose where to put each block that it writes, it can
easily choose to write a series of blocks to a collection of different
devices, thus getting the major benefit of striping.
I see 2 major benefits of striping: one is that many drives are involved
and the other is that the stripes are allocated adjacant, so that io
on one drive can just proceed to the next physical blocks when one
stripe has been processed. Dependent on the size of the IO operations
involved, first one or more disks in a stripe is processed, and then the
following stripes are processed. ZFS misses the second part of the
optimization, In think.
--
Bill Davidsen [off-list ref]
"Woe unto the statesman who makes war without a reason that will still
be valid when the war is over..." Otto von Bismark
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-raid" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html