On 26 Jul 2007, at 03:36, Nick Piggin wrote:

On Wed, Jul 25, 2007 at 10:10:07PM -0400, Chris Mason wrote:

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On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 03:37:28 +0200
Nick Piggin [off-list ref] wrote:

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One advantage to the state tree is that it separates the state from
the memory being described, allowing a simple kmap style interface
that covers subpages, highmem and superpages.

I suppose so, although we should have added those interfaces long
ago ;) The variants in fsblock are pretty good, and you could always
do an arbitrary extent (rather than block) based API using the
pagecache tree if it would be helpful.

Yes, you could use fsblock for the state bits and make a separate API
to map the actual pages.

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It also more naturally matches the way we want to do IO, making for
easy clustering.

Well the pagecache tree is used to reasonable effect for that now.
OK the code isn't beautiful ;). Granted, this might be an area where
the seperate state tree ends up being better. We'll see.

One thing it gains us is finding the start of the cluster.  Even if
called by kswapd, the state tree allows writepage to find the  
start of
the cluster and send down a big bio (provided I implement trylock to
avoid various deadlocks).

That's very true, we could potentially also do that with the block  
extent
tree that I want to try with fsblock.

I'm looking at "cleaning up" some of these aops APIs so hopefully  
most of
the deadlock problems go away. Should be useful to both our  
efforts. Will
post patches hopefully when I get time to finish the draft this  
weekend.

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O_DIRECT becomes a special case of readpages and writepages....the
memory used for IO just comes from userland instead of the page
cache.

Could be, although you'll probably also need to teach the mm about
the state tree and/or still manipulate the pagecache tree to prevent
concurrency?

Well, it isn't coded yet, but I should be able to do it from the FS
specific ops.

Probably, if you invalidate all the pagecache in the range beforehand
you should be able to do it (and I guess you want to do the invalidate
anyway). Although, below deadlock issues might still bite somehwere...

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But isn't the main aim of O_DIRECT to do as little locking and
synchronisation with the pagecache as possible? I thought this is
why your race fixing patches got put on the back burner (although
they did look fairly nice from a correctness POV).

I put the placeholder patches on hold because handling a corner case
where userland did O_DIRECT from a mmap'd region of the same file  
(Linus
pointed it out to me).  Basically my patches had to work in 64k  
chunks
to avoid a deadlock in get_user_pages.  With the state tree, I can
allow the page to be faulted in but still properly deal with it.

Oh right, I didn't think of that one. Would you still have similar
issues with the external state tree? I mean, the filesystem doesn't
really know why the fault is taken. O_DIRECT read from a file into
mmapped memory of the same block in the file is almost hopeless I
think.

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Well I'm kind of handwaving when it comes to O_DIRECT ;) It does  
look
like this might be another advantage of the state tree (although you
aren't allowed to slow down buffered IO to achieve the locking ;)).

;) The O_DIRECT benefit is a fringe thing.  I've long wanted to help
clean up that code, but the real point of the patch is to make  
general
usage faster and less complex.  If I can't get there, the O_DIRECT
stuff doesn't matter.

Sure, although unifying code is always a plus so I like that you've
got that in mind.

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The ability to put in additional tracking info like the process  
that
first dirtied a range is also significant.  So, I think it is worth
trying.

Definitely, and I'm glad you are. You haven't converted me yet, but
I look forward to finding the best ideas from our two approaches  
when
the patches are further along (ext2 port of fsblock coming along, so
we'll be able to have races soon :P).

I'm sure we can find some river in Cambridge, winner gets to throw
Axboe in.

Very noble of you to donate your colleage to such a worthy cause.

Cambridge = Cam + Bridge = Bridge over the river Cam

The Cam is a bit muddy though so it is not a very enjoyable  
experience falling/being thrown into it.

Nice for punting on though when the weather is nice.  (-:

Best regards,

	Anton
-- 
Anton Altaparmakov <aia21 at cam.ac.uk> (replace at with @)
Unix Support, Computing Service, University of Cambridge, CB2 3QH, UK
Linux NTFS maintainer, http://www.linux-ntfs.org/


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