Sverre Rabbelier [off-list ref] writes:
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 11:47 AM, John Keeping [off-list ref] wrote:
quoted
quoted
When did we last revisit what minimal python version we are ok with requiring?
I was wondering if people would weigh in discussing that in response to
[1] but no one has commented on that part of it. As another datapoint,
Brandon Casey was suggesting patching git-p4.py to support Python 2.4
[2].
[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/213920
[2] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/214048
I for one would be happy to kill off support for anything older than
2.6 (which had it's latest release on October 1st, 2008).
Junio, how have we decided in the past which version of x to support?
I do not think there was any conclusion. $gmane/212215 claiming 2.4
support matters for RHEL 5.x users was the last on the topic as far
as I can tell, so it boils down to another question: do users on
RHEL 5.x matter?
I can read from $gmane/212215 that users of the said platform can
safely keep using Python 2.4 under their vendor support contract
until 2017. But let's focus on what do these users expect of their
system and software they run on it a bit.
When they want to run a piece software that is not shipped with
RHEL, either by writing their own or by importing from elsewhere,
that needs 2.6 features, what are their options?
(a) The platform vendor optionally supplies 2.6 with or without
support;
(b) The users can and do install 2.6 as /usr/local/bin/python2.6,
which may even be community-supported, but the vendor does not
support it; or
(c) The vendor terminates the support contract for users who choose
to go (b).
I think we can safely discard (c); if that is the case, the users on
the said platform will not choose to update Git either, so it does
not matter where the future versions of Git sets the lower bound of
Python version at.
If we are not talking about the situation (c), then the users can
choose to use 2.6, and more importantly, Python being a popular
software, I would imagine that there are reputable sources of
prepackaged RPMs for them to do so without going too much hassle of
configuring, compiling and installing.
Now how does the decision we make today for releases of Git that
haven't yet happened will affect these users? As these versions of
newer Git were not shipped with RHEL 5.x, and also I am assuming
that Git is a more niche product than Python is, I would imagine
that it is very unlikely that the vendor gives it the users as an
optional package. The users will have to do the same thing to be
able to use such versions of Git as whatever they do in order to use
Python 2.6.
Given that, what the vendor originally shipped and officially
supports does not affect the choices we would make today for newer
versions of Git. The users in a shop where additional third-party
software in /usr/local/bin is strictly forbidden, they are stuck
with the version of Git that the vendor shipped anyway, because they
won't be able to install an updated Git in /usr/local/bin, either.
That is, unless installing 2.6 as /usr/local/bin/python2.6 (or if
you are really paranoid, /usr/local/only-for-git/bin/python2.6 where
nobody's $PATH points at) is impossible.
So personally I do not think dropping 2.4 is a huge problem for
future versions of Git, but I'd like to hear from those working in
IT support for large and slow-moving organizations (aka RHEL 5
customers).
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Junio C Hamano [off-list ref] wrote:
Sverre Rabbelier [off-list ref] writes:
quoted
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 11:47 AM, John Keeping [off-list ref] wrote:
quoted
quoted
When did we last revisit what minimal python version we are ok with requiring?
I was wondering if people would weigh in discussing that in response to
[1] but no one has commented on that part of it. As another datapoint,
Brandon Casey was suggesting patching git-p4.py to support Python 2.4
[2].
[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/213920
[2] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/214048
I for one would be happy to kill off support for anything older than
2.6 (which had it's latest release on October 1st, 2008).
Junio, how have we decided in the past which version of x to support?
I do not think there was any conclusion. $gmane/212215 claiming 2.4
support matters for RHEL 5.x users was the last on the topic as far
as I can tell, so it boils down to another question: do users on
RHEL 5.x matter?
I can read from $gmane/212215 that users of the said platform can
safely keep using Python 2.4 under their vendor support contract
until 2017. But let's focus on what do these users expect of their
system and software they run on it a bit.
When they want to run a piece software that is not shipped with
RHEL, either by writing their own or by importing from elsewhere,
that needs 2.6 features, what are their options?
(a) The platform vendor optionally supplies 2.6 with or without
support;
(b) The users can and do install 2.6 as /usr/local/bin/python2.6,
which may even be community-supported, but the vendor does not
support it; or
(c) The vendor terminates the support contract for users who choose
to go (b).
I think we can safely discard (c); if that is the case, the users on
the said platform will not choose to update Git either, so it does
not matter where the future versions of Git sets the lower bound of
Python version at.
If we are not talking about the situation (c), then the users can
choose to use 2.6, and more importantly, Python being a popular
software, I would imagine that there are reputable sources of
prepackaged RPMs for them to do so without going too much hassle of
configuring, compiling and installing.
Now how does the decision we make today for releases of Git that
haven't yet happened will affect these users? As these versions of
newer Git were not shipped with RHEL 5.x, and also I am assuming
that Git is a more niche product than Python is, I would imagine
that it is very unlikely that the vendor gives it the users as an
optional package. The users will have to do the same thing to be
able to use such versions of Git as whatever they do in order to use
Python 2.6.
Given that, what the vendor originally shipped and officially
supports does not affect the choices we would make today for newer
versions of Git. The users in a shop where additional third-party
software in /usr/local/bin is strictly forbidden, they are stuck
with the version of Git that the vendor shipped anyway, because they
won't be able to install an updated Git in /usr/local/bin, either.
That is, unless installing 2.6 as /usr/local/bin/python2.6 (or if
you are really paranoid, /usr/local/only-for-git/bin/python2.6 where
nobody's $PATH points at) is impossible.
So personally I do not think dropping 2.4 is a huge problem for
future versions of Git, but I'd like to hear from those working in
IT support for large and slow-moving organizations (aka RHEL 5
customers).
I'm not really in the demographic that you asked to hear from, but
I'll give my 2 cents anyway. :)
Firstly, I defer to those with more knowledge and experience with
python to decide which version should be the minimum version
supported. Python 2.6 seems to be the consensus and that's fine with
me.
With respect to older platforms like RHEL 5.X that don't ship with
Python 2.6 or later, I suspect most people who work in an organization
with a dedicated IT staff can request that a more recent version of
python be installed. So, I don't think a python 2.6 requirement (if
there was one) would be a blocker for them, and I don't think it would
be a major pain for the sysadmin to install.
My only opinion is that if we can avoid breaking older platforms
fairly easily, we should do so. If there is someone out there
building git packages (e.g. EPEL) for RHEL 5.X or anything else, I
imagine that one less dependency makes installing and supporting the
package that much easier.
So, my comments shouldn't be taken to suggest that git should support
any particular version of python. That decision should be made by
those who are willing to support whatever version they feel strongly
about.
-Brandon
On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Brandon Casey [off-list ref] wrote:
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Junio C Hamano [off-list ref] wrote:
quoted
Sverre Rabbelier [off-list ref] writes:
quoted
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 11:47 AM, John Keeping [off-list ref] wrote:
quoted
quoted
When did we last revisit what minimal python version we are ok with requiring?
I was wondering if people would weigh in discussing that in response to
[1] but no one has commented on that part of it. As another datapoint,
Brandon Casey was suggesting patching git-p4.py to support Python 2.4
[2].
[1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/213920
[2] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/214048
I for one would be happy to kill off support for anything older than
2.6 (which had it's latest release on October 1st, 2008).
Junio, how have we decided in the past which version of x to support?
I do not think there was any conclusion. $gmane/212215 claiming 2.4
support matters for RHEL 5.x users was the last on the topic as far
as I can tell, so it boils down to another question: do users on
RHEL 5.x matter?
I can read from $gmane/212215 that users of the said platform can
safely keep using Python 2.4 under their vendor support contract
until 2017. But let's focus on what do these users expect of their
system and software they run on it a bit.
When they want to run a piece software that is not shipped with
RHEL, either by writing their own or by importing from elsewhere,
that needs 2.6 features, what are their options?
(a) The platform vendor optionally supplies 2.6 with or without
support;
(b) The users can and do install 2.6 as /usr/local/bin/python2.6,
which may even be community-supported, but the vendor does not
support it; or
(c) The vendor terminates the support contract for users who choose
to go (b).
I think we can safely discard (c); if that is the case, the users on
the said platform will not choose to update Git either, so it does
not matter where the future versions of Git sets the lower bound of
Python version at.
If we are not talking about the situation (c), then the users can
choose to use 2.6, and more importantly, Python being a popular
software, I would imagine that there are reputable sources of
prepackaged RPMs for them to do so without going too much hassle of
configuring, compiling and installing.
Now how does the decision we make today for releases of Git that
haven't yet happened will affect these users? As these versions of
newer Git were not shipped with RHEL 5.x, and also I am assuming
that Git is a more niche product than Python is, I would imagine
that it is very unlikely that the vendor gives it the users as an
optional package. The users will have to do the same thing to be
able to use such versions of Git as whatever they do in order to use
Python 2.6.
Given that, what the vendor originally shipped and officially
supports does not affect the choices we would make today for newer
versions of Git. The users in a shop where additional third-party
software in /usr/local/bin is strictly forbidden, they are stuck
with the version of Git that the vendor shipped anyway, because they
won't be able to install an updated Git in /usr/local/bin, either.
That is, unless installing 2.6 as /usr/local/bin/python2.6 (or if
you are really paranoid, /usr/local/only-for-git/bin/python2.6 where
nobody's $PATH points at) is impossible.
So personally I do not think dropping 2.4 is a huge problem for
future versions of Git, but I'd like to hear from those working in
IT support for large and slow-moving organizations (aka RHEL 5
customers).
I'm not really in the demographic that you asked to hear from, but
I'll give my 2 cents anyway. :)
Firstly, I defer to those with more knowledge and experience with
python to decide which version should be the minimum version
supported. Python 2.6 seems to be the consensus and that's fine with
me.
With respect to older platforms like RHEL 5.X that don't ship with
Python 2.6 or later, I suspect most people who work in an organization
with a dedicated IT staff can request that a more recent version of
python be installed. So, I don't think a python 2.6 requirement (if
there was one) would be a blocker for them, and I don't think it would
be a major pain for the sysadmin to install.
Just a datapoint: I'm working with customers on RHEL 5.X that
unfortunately has an extremely lengthy (>3 months) process of
approving non-standard packages for install. Yeah, it's horrible, but
some times that's reality.
We are currently not using Git with that client, but we are in the
process of changing that. Said customer already have an exception for
all versions of Git.
I doubt this will end up being a problem in reality or not, but if it
will be, I'm sure it can be worked around out. I'm just pointing out
that the above suspicion might not be accurate.